from CCTV

Yes Clif it is hard to pass a bigger stone....So yes stay away from fatty foods.....and yes no matter what treatment you get....leave it in or take it out, you will have to watch your diet....so nothing is really gained....7000 for an overnight stay in emergency? ridiculous.....I guess that is what yo pay for immediate service...

Paul I understand the political reasons for your concern. Should there be a major conflict between North and South Korea it may strain relationships.....However our financial interdependence would likely prevent it from deteriorating too much.....We all have different family conditions in life.....For me it is more philosophical....I saw my mother taken from a farm in Saskatchewan and placed in an autocratic, cold, family in Victroia, BC. She never felt comfortable there and to this day she says she wish she was closer to her family......For me I took a rose out of the garden and would have rather left it in there....I want to be closer to Yuping's family for her......I know she misses some family functions and experiencing the spirit in the people of festivities in China......She does feel isolated......that is inescapable........So I have vowed to return to Nanning and live closer to her family some day.....just as I made a vow to myself that if she could not come to Canada then I would go there......whatever the reason.....your sentiments are very common and noble though.

Paul you said:

"..... I do have concerns with being a fish out of water, unable to read or talk or understand anybody or anything, and being part of a Communist country. "

I wonder how the ladies from China would fill in the blank of the altered statement that I posted below , before and after coming to the west.

'....... I ( beautiful Chinese lady )do have concerns with being a fish out of water, unable to read or talk or understand anybody or anything, and being part of a Communist _ _ _ _ _ _ country.'

How would she fill in the blank? Could be interesting!!

I know that when I first went to China I was surprised that I did not see a "communist" state. It wasn't what I had seen on TV for the past 20-30 years. I didn't see goose stepping armed troops all over the place. Even today when I talk about China it is difficult to explain what China appears to me to be. They are not quite a "typical" Communist state and yet they are not quite a " typical" free capitalist state either. Perhaps it is best to say that they are " China. " A unique country. A special country. A fascinating country. Like many western countries and yet quite different also. They certainly "ain't" the China that we learned about 40 years ago. Like I said they are a fascinating country.

I have some of the same concerns that you have but I think I see most of them being manageable. As far as learning Chinese. You have time. If you have any colleges in you area you might want to see if any of them offer Chinese language classes. There are many ways to learn a language but I believe that in a structure taught enviroment one might be able to get some of the fundamentals down.

Take it easy.

Danny

Danny for once we agree on something. I have been pondering how our wives feel when they come here. I would like to hear what they have to say about their experiance coming here. As for China yes it is not what our biased press and government has been telling us for so many years. They as a people are just like us. Want to work and be able to support the family. If things don't work out for my wife if she gets her visa and comes here I will have no problems at all moving there and living. I feel safer there anyway than here in the USA.

Bob S.

Like most, I think I could easily adapt to living in China, especially in a "smaller" city like Nanning where the pace is a little slower. The biggest concerns for me are the Chinese economy and government stability. I can only see it going one of two ways. Either it continues to grow and the cost of living continues to rise making it not such a great prospect financally for retirement, or the economy collapses which makes it easier to afford living there, but how much of the infrastructure (hospitals, public works, roads, transport) will still be accessible. Kind of in conjunction with that, what happens if the government collapses ala the Soviet Union, Bulgaria or Yugoslavia. Even without the safety concerns during such an event, again what would happen to the infrastructure and what would be the long term outcome.

Ran across this article yesterday which was kind of surprising to read.
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Gentlemen I think we need to stop talking about the politics of China on this forum. Remember big brother is watching and if we are not carefull this forum may be blocked for our friends in China to see. Just my humble opinion.

Bob S.

[There is no political banter in this message.]

All excellent and insighful replies; thank you for the responses.

Danny, yes... Your edited quotation is definitely something I've given great thought to even before my lovely wife arrived. I'll always have great respect, admiration, and appreciation for what she went through, even braving her first plane flight ever traveling from Chong Qing to America all alone. Wow... It leaves me speachless.

Hu Yue and I talked at great length about her coming here and what she'd face. I don't ever mean to belittle anything she went through, but even she would admit it wouldn't be quite the same for me. She was more familiar with American culture, the english language, and reading/writing than I have for the Chinese culture and language.

But with that said, I totally agree with you... I have time. I was simply voicing my concerns and those concerns aren't meant to be reasons why I wouldn't live in China, just issues I think about seriously when considering it.

I also strongly agree with you that a structured teaching method is far more affective than learning Chinese ad hoc. I thought I could pick up her English teaching when she came and was sorely mistaken. It's much, much easier to follow a structured method.

She purchased for me the exact Chinese teaching method books she used in grammar school. Her niece in Nanning ordered the textbooks and sent them to me. It's entirely in Chinese, so it's something we work on together. Reading, writing, speaking, and hearing... It's quite a challenge!!! (Yikes!)

For you guys contemplating or currently living in China, how do you deal with the language issue? I assume all of you are learning also, or perhaps have already acheived some level of fluency? Or do you just live with the communication limitations?

-Paul

I would rely upon my wife a lot.... and to answer casprd's concern for the economy, I think if it were to deteriorate a bit would make life easier because deterioration usually means a decline in prices such as is going on in the USA right now.........However one has to wonder how to cope with our own economic ups and downs as well. Ours is more heavily leveraged which translates to instability and fragility where the markets are concerned...... I see what my grandparents went up against when they immigrated to Canada some 100 years ago and what they went through.....We all seek out our like kinds when overseas and we would likely group together somewhat like my ancestors did.....A great conversation all around guys..and so very relevant to our plight to remain with our wives in the distant future.....take care guys and stay safe and happy......Danming

Brian that link that you posted had an interesting story. But for some reason I thought it was going to have something to do with medical care in China. Actually I thought it was going to be a link to this story that had just appeared recently on MSN:

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Although both articles are on different subject they have a common thread in that the Chinese people want to be heard and I think the government is trying to listen. It may not be a completely open society but things are changing and they are trying to address some of the issues.

When I was in China I had to go to hospital a couple of time and I was satisfied with the care that I was given. The issues that I went for were minor problems and not major ones. I went to a local hospital and not a major hopital. Still, I was satisfied when I left.

Danny

I go every 4 weeks to China and see and hear a lot more than the media tells us.

Actually, China started this process of listening to its people and letting them have more of a voice about 4 years ago, maybe longer.

I see changes already occurring and being implemented. And, as far as I am concerned, it is all for the better.

Economic conditions are improving. Minimum wage has gone up, as of July 1 from to 450 RMB per month for unskilled labor and 750 RMB per month and up for skilled labor.

They are revamping the bank financing for home buying. Not too long ago it was 30% down payment and proof of income, i.e., employment, and if you were not a resident of the province you live in (foreigner or Chinese), down payment was 50%. Just 3 - 4 weeks ago, it is now 20% down payment and proof of income can be from any source, and it does not matter if you are not from the same province. Shu got qualified soley based on the monthly income she receives from me to pay the living expenses for our apartment and her needs and the savings we have in a Chinese bank to buy a home.

If the economy booms for China, I think that is great for the people. It will still be affordable for us westerners. So, to have a fear that one day it might not be affordable for us on a retirement income. I have to disagree. Plus, if all you are relying on is social security income and no other retirement income from other sources such as investments, 401K, etc. Then, I could see you struggling a bit.

However, I am in China every 4 weeks and I can surely tell you, if you have at least $1,500 - $2,000 USD per month, you will do just fine. My total monthly expenses (not counting extra I give to Shu for her only) is $680. That is rent, electric, water, property management fees (trash hauling, maintenance, security), groceries and miscellaneous bus and taxi fares. Although, I am not retired, though self-employed and doing very well. So I tend to splurge alot and Shu hates that I do, though enjoys the benefits of my splurging.

As for medical care, I have gone to local hospitals and/or clinics and I am usually in and out of there in less than 2 hours, where I have been examined, diagnosed and given prescriptions and/or proper treatment. The results have all been positive and I find Chinese traditional medicine to work just as good or even better than modern medicine. Look what happen with Shu being discovered with 2 breast tumors when she went in for something completely different. That was in June. She had the surgery 3 weeks ago, it was benign and she is all fine. Surgery took 3 hours, lab results within 45 minutes and she was home 2 days later with 4 daily visits for treatment.

For me, life is good in China. I just wish this was end of 2011 and I was already moving there permanently.

As for speaking Mandarin. I get buy on my own and when Shu, friends or others are with me they translate. I learned from Shu, friends and my customers to use 2 to 3 word phrases to ask for something or answer a question in order to establish some kind of dialogue. Well, it works. And when I do not understand, my favorite phrase is, "Wo budong". Which means, "I do not understand". I usually get one or two English words or hand gestures, and from there we work it out and understand each other. I don't find it frustrating. I find it fun, interesting, challenging and stories to share with family and friends on my return to the USA.

Always remember this.

Not knowing or not having some kind of knowledge about something, somewhere or someone creates fear because of the unknown. Fear causes panic, which contributes to rumors, untruths, exaggerations, even violence. People tend to accept fact based on rumors and hear-say and old news that keeps getting passed around.

Take the time to make time, to overcome your fears by obtaining knowledge and knowing and having an understanding of the very things you fear. As the saying goes, "Knowledge is powerful!".


Snyder

Thanks for clearing up some misconceptions Snyder.....

Thanks Danming!

I just felt the need to throw in my 2 cents worth on a lot of the misconceptions and fears I was reading from the threads. It is that kind of mis-information that is read by newcomers to China and the forum that will create fears and rumors that are unnecessary.

I constantly am meeting people on the plane, after I tell them I go to China or just coming back from China, they say things like, "Oh, I heard.....", or "I read somewhere..........", or "Nothing but cheap and crappy quality comes from China", or "So just how backward are they....", or "Aren't you afraid of....", etc. Yet, none of these people ever been to China.

When I tell them the things I know and have experienced and what China is doing to be progressive. The comment I get that I hate the most and wish I can punch them out when they say this is, "Well, I hope their economy gets worse and they do not succeed in becoming the next economic super power".

Yep, and these people are my fellow Americans. I have but one word for them........ IDIOTS!!

Snyder

Interesting... Thanks for the post, Snyder. I'm reading the news over breakfast and just read this interesting tidbit. Thought I'd cut-n-paste some of it here for the sake of discussion.

Cheers gentleman! :-)

-Paul

China Overtakes Japan in 2Q as No. 2 Economy

TOKYO -- Japan lost its place as the world's No. 2 economy to China in the second quarter as receding global growth sapped momentum and stunted a shaky recovery.

Gross domestic product grew at an annualized rate of just 0.4 percent, the government said Monday, far below the annualized 4.4 percent expansion in the first quarter and adding to evidence the global recovery is facing strong headwinds.

The figures underscore China's emergence as an economic power that is changing everything from the global balance of military and financial power to how cars are designed. It is already the biggest exporter, auto buyer and steel producer, and its global influence is expanding.

China has been a major force behind the world's emergence from deep recession, delivering much-needed juice to the U.S., Japan and Europe. Tokyo's latest numbers, however, suggest that Chinese demand alone may not be enough for Japan or other economic giants.

[Then late it states the following about income.]

China's rise has produced glaring contradictions. The wealth gap between an elite who profited most from three decades of reform and its poor majority is so extreme that China has dozens of billionaires while average income for the rest of its 1.3 billion people is among the world's lowest.

Japan's people still are among the world's richest, with a per capita income of $37,800 last year, compared with China's $3,600. So are Americans at $42,240, their economy still by far the biggest.

"We should be concerned about per capita GDP," said Kyohei Morita, chief economist at Barclays Capital in Tokyo. China overtaking Japan "is just symbolic," he said. "It's nothing more than that."

[You can read the whole article here:]
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That is true that there is a huge gap between the haves and have nots in China, though that is changing. This month representives of the USA from AFL-CIO are in China providing assistance on revising the labor laws and establishing criteria for pay raises, employee performance reviews, pay scales, labor grievances and disputes.

With my consulting work the customers I am working with, as part of the improvement in their quality control practices, includes guiding them on redefining job descriptions, training requirements, skill level qualification criteria, etc. Previous employees that had left these companies, are now returning because of the changes.

It will take time for China to narrow the salary gap, though no where near to the USA and Europe. However, one must keep in mind it is a different economy and pay is according to the economic region. In the USA, not all states have the same pay scales for the same positions because the cost of living is different in each state. Some are low, others are high. A 1,200 sq. ft. house in Texas that sells for $130,000, the same builder and same floor plan in CA would sell for $300,000, at the lowest.

If foreign companies establishing factories in China would quit exploiting the people and actually pay them wages conducent to the job responsibilties based on the cost of living for the specific regions, then we could start seeing wages of around $15,000 - $20,000 annually for assembly workers and engineering personnel earning between $28,000 - $35,000. Today, an engineer with 7 - 10 years experience earns between $15,000 - $18,000 annually in China.

By the way Paul, those salary gap figures in the article you shared are the same ones reported in 2009, which tells me the media or whoever is using old information. If you do a little research, you will see that the average annual income is around $5,800. So, the gap is narrowing. And the figures that were used for that report is strictly based on one industrial area, none of which were Shenzhen and Suzhou, which are the largest and fastest growing industrial areas where people are earning at or more than $1,000 per month for assembly work and engineers between $1,800 - $2,200 per month.

You can't base opinion or judgement on everything you read from one article.

As I have always said and told many people, "If you have not been there, work there and/or live and work there", then you should not comment on something you do not have direct knowledge about.

It is already forecast that by end of 2010, if China's growth continues at its current trend, they will be the No. 2 economic power entering 2011. They are already No. 1 in the purchase of electronics and high-tech products, Japan is No. 2 and USA supposedly is tied with Japan, while Europe is No. 3.

Snyder

Doc, please tell me the AFL-CIO aren't setting up shop in China. Holy cow,,,,

Clif

don't start any wars over this!!!!

No, Clif, they are not setting up an office in China. ALF-CIO was invited to only provide an assessment of China's labor policies and make recommendations for changes. They are also visiting various factories to meet with executives on how to improve hiring and personnel management practices and establish competive pay scales. This all mainly due to the recent employee suicides that had occur in Fujian province created buy abusive management styles.

Believe it or not, industry executives are welcoming the help and want change and realize they did not know how to go about making change.

There are labor unions in China, though completely different than those in the USA, Canada and Europe, and they will not be joining forces with AFL-CIO or any other labor unions from the USA. They are talking with them to get guidance on handling of grievances and improving workplace environments.

There are changes going in to effect and I seen it in these past few months. Not like the USA, where it takes several years to implement changes. In China they do it as they think and speak about it.

It's all good. After all, it's about the People for the People.

Snyder

Yeah, I think you make a lot of good points, Snyder, the wisest of which is to listen to those who actually live(d) in China. Definitely, the region you live in plays a big role in how much of an income you can expect.

Hu Yue observed that life in our small town in New York (America) is much, much better than in her small town of Changba (outside of Chongqing). The average individual is very poor and lives on meager wages. Now my other Chinese friend comes from a family of millionaires in Shanghai. She represents the other end of the spectrum and is quick to say, if you live in the urban areas, you can expect to make much more money, which is why many in the rural communities travel to the urban areas to funnel money to the family at home. She points out that while America offers many more opportunities, life in Shanghai is very good. This is a very contrasting report from two Chinese nationals, one from a rural community and one from an urban metropolis.

There’s a wide gap between income levels within China’s social stratum and that's not apt to change rapidly until they address the wages in these rural communities and the goods and services they provide. China projects its urban population will surpass its rural population in about five years (by 2015). This shift skews the average salary statistics, but it’s important to keep these statistics in perspective. The rural areas cannot keep up with the salaries of the urban areas. Raising the income in rural areas can only be done by increasing the cost of goods and services, which will have a ripple-effect on the rest of the economy and create an imbalance. This imbalance is currently unsustainable, which is why we see the rural communities squeezed out of the overall economic growth occurring in the urban areas. Bolstering the urban areas, as we’re seeing, serves to further widen the gap of the lower class salaries in the rural communities. It’s a very serious issue China really needs to address and I’m happy to hear that they are.

A good gauge of salaries is seen by viewing teacher salaries. These stats come from the China National Bureau of Statistics for 2004/2005, but the gaps are still legitimate today. The average national monthly salary for a high school or elementary teacher was 898 RMB in urban areas and 234 RMB in rural areas (rural was 26% of an urban salary). If you look at Beijing the numbers are 1,445 RMB to 628 RMB (rural is 43% of urban salary). In Qinghai the numbers are 790 RMB to 148 RMB (rural is 18% of urban). These are very wide income gaps that only reflect educational salaries.

It's nice to hear, though, that the gap between the rural and urban communities is being addressed and I'm curious to see how it changes in the years and decades to come. China is an amazing country with a remarkably intelligent and resilient populous. I have no doubt the powers that be will address these issues in the most effective way possible.

-Paul

Thanks Paul!

Those salary figures for teachers has not changed for the past few years and when they recruit for teachers outside of China, the salary offer is the same with the exception that they get free housing. Although, the teachers that are hired must pay their own way to/from China and will get reimbursed at completion of their teaching contracts.

I will do my best to post what I know from first-hand knowledge, especially within my consulting work on relevant topics.

Snyder

I am guessing that were America to have 1.4 billion people to look after there would be a lot of wage disparity too. the haves would even become more reclusive from the have not's.....My brother in laws son as in the past few years landed a good job with a company and he started at about 600 yuan per month....A year later and he was earning 1200 a month and now he is earning 2200 per month which is only enough to pay the mortgage on the apartment their mom n dad paid the down payment on. It is also likely the highest his pay scale will allow for the moment too. They continue to rent the condo to pay down the3 mortgage and stay with relatives until his wife finds work in Nanning which may be a struggle because she doesn't know to o many people there. My wife also added that when the stock market is down in china everyone buys houses so they price upwards however when the stock market is booming there, they buy stocks...........When a stock values downwards they just sit on it and let it continue on its cycle even if it takes several years.......Plus they do not have the added features such as short selling stocks, reciprocal etf's and they cannot sell the stock until the day after they buy it......So it is somewhat slower paced than our economy....

My wife was also saying that a few years ago when you started up with a new company you were usually given a room and some meager board until the companies business was such that they could actually start paying a salary. She started work in Shenzhen and did not receive her first three months of regular salary but they fed her and gave her at least a place to sleep.....so there are many other customs being carried on over there that are quite different from here.
But it was once of Yuping's greatest joys to send a little amount of money home to the family....
We don't send much home now any more except to pay for Yuping's pension plan.......and every now and then some money to help them celebrate traditional festivities.......
Anyway take care everyone and enjoy the different stories here.....Danming

Are you speaking of Da Shan ? If so, his name is Mark Roswell and he's known as the most famous foreigner.
Ask any local Chinese if they know 'Da Shan' and you'll get 'of course' as a reply.
Actually he's a Canuck who moved to Beijing to attend a university there and was recruited by CCTV. He's quite fluent in Chinese and I've watched his shows quite regularly when I was there.

Just last week while in Suzhou, Shu and me were watching the news about a large recruiting campaign to attract westerners with education and experience in high-tech career fields and industries. Companies are offering between 300,000 - 1,000,000 Yuan annually ($44,000 - $147,000 USD), though the average range seems to be 300,000 - 800,000 Yuan annually ($44,000 - $118,000 USD). Positions are engineering, supervisor, director and manager. The companies are foreign-owned, as well as Chinese-owned that do 80% business with foreign companies. Minimum years experience is 10 and offers are for 5 years employment contracts with extensions for longer.

So, if anyone is interested, one of the large head hunter companies hired to do recruiting is LieTou.com.

On another day, CCTV news talked about incentives being offered to foreigners and Chinese that are married and are in the high-tech career fields. If they are willing to relocate and live and work in any of the more industrialized regions, to buy a new home they would only have to pay 10% down, instead of the usual 20 - 30%.

Shu and I decided to research this further and found out my consulting work is one of the qualifying career fields.

Snyder

Wow... Thanks for posting this, Snyder!

I did a scan for "Technical Writer" and was happy to see a lot of work for my profession. The salaries that are posted don't look that attractive (most don't post salaries), but perhaps they're decent for China. $35,000 in Shanghai... I don't know. Nice to know the work is there though... I'm sure many Chinese companies could use a good technology-based English writer.

-Paul

Paul,

Any salary paying $32,000 or more in USD in China, considering cost of living there, would be equivalent to earning $55,000 in USA. So, if they are offering $35,000, when Chinese professionals are being paid $18,000 - $22,000 USD for the same position. $35,000 per year is really not bad at all.

A really nice rental apartment in Shanghai, unfurnished, are about 4000 - 7000 RMB per month. That's about $600 - $1030 per month for a 60 - 85 sq. mt. (645 - 915 sq. ft.). If you live outside Shanghai and commute on the rail, homes are cheaper, 3200 - 5500 RMB per month.

What people have to realize, salaries are based on the local economy and cost of living. For instance, a Quality Engineer in LA or San Diego would earn $80,000 minimum. That same job in Albuquerque, NM pays $52,000, the average is $40,000. I saw QE jobs for $35,000 - $45,000 in Shanghai and Suzhou. At $40,000 or $52,000 in Albuquerque would not let you afford a new home that are now going for $180,000. But you can rent a 2-bedroom for $900. In Shanghai or Suzhou, you can afford to rent or buy earning $35,000 - $45,000, paying anywhere from $450 - $950 for rent or mortgage and still plenty of money left over because all your utilities would never get any higher than $45 per month. In Nanning, I pay $3.00 for water, $18 for electricity (summer rate) and $15 every 3 months for property fees (garbage, grounds upkeep, security, etc.), $129 annually for internet and $139 annually for cable. My rent is $148 per month paid every 3 months ($444) for a one-bedroom 58 sq. mt. home.

Basically, what I am saying, is that $35,000 is not bad for China. Especially, if you are retired and collecting retirement. Then, you can still get a job paying $35,000 in China and be living very, very comfortable.

Snyder

Snyder

You absolutely right in your assesement...The only thing is that each individiual have to sit down!!!...carefully review his/her situation...and then make a decision!!!...THAT is the crucial point!!

And with this rapid development over here each and every day can make a huge difference!

To you guys thinking!!...Don't think too long!!...Every minute of thinking is a lost Unit of Your local currency

Premington!

Why do you think a Chinese company could need a Technical Writer??..they have constructed their own Space Suit!!...their own Satellites..Their own Aircrafts....their own Deep Water Subs....and so on!

What this country need is dedicated support from first of all the Agricultural sector and then the Infrastructure in the Communications Field...once that is done !!!...Duck!!!!

Pls don't take this as a Political Wish or Comment!!...It's already happening

It's hard to say it in Neutral words but this country is leasing Farmland overseas thanks to it's Trade Surplus.If some woke up there would be mutual benefits to the problems.Don't fight the Dragon or a Ghost hidden in the Mountains(if Alive?????)